Runes add little gameplay value

by Sentioch | 05/12/2009 19:23:03

Sentioch

The function of runes is to slightly modify the way a skill works. There are only 5 types of runes, and low level versions drop pretty frequently so its not difficult to find any particular rune modification you want. The only difference with more rare runes is that they would have an increased effect on the stats.

Because runes are common and there are only 5 of them, it seems pointless to make them be items at all. Why not simply allow you to select between the 5 operational modes on each skill in the skill tree? If the only effect of more rare runes is a slight increase in damage or effect, this is not a very exciting change.

In D2, a rare rune was valuable on many levels...there were good REASONS to seek out high level runes because they provided bonuses you couldn't get in other ways (eg, Shael or Ber), and they could be used in awesome Rune Word formulas.

If the only advantage to a super rare rune in D3 is that it has +5 instead of +4, that's pretty lame...and as a "casual powergamer" I don't really care about a small difference of +1. This is going to make seeking out these rare runes a lot less fun because there is so little benefit to getting the ultimate rune...much less exciting than seeking out the runes and completing a runeword like HOTO or something, a ritual that made me FEEL like I was making real magic happen.

Basically, in making this post I hope someone realizes just what an awesome thing runewords in D2 were and brings them back...possibly replacing D3 runes, which don't really have any useful reason for being an item at all, and could just as easily be made as a selectable mode for each skill.

EDIT - oh yeah and one more thing...before you reply with something like "D2 runewords sucked they were so unbalanced just look at Enigma", well this is a completely separate issue....I am talking about the rune word MECHANICS, not individual items....they could make any item in the game unbalanced if they wanted to.

[ Post edited by Sentioch ]

by Bashiok | 07/12/2009 20:40:17

Bashiok


Q u o t e:
The function of runes is to slightly modify the way a skill works.


Some of them are fairly significant modifications, but I suppose it depends on what you think of as slightly or significantly.


Q u o t e:
There are only 5 types of runes


Incorrect.


Q u o t e:
low level versions drop pretty frequently so its not difficult to find any particular rune modification you want.


Are you basing this off of videos or playable demos we've produced where we specifically set drop rates in order to showcase specific systems such as skill runes?


Q u o t e:
The only difference with more rare runes is that they would have an increased effect on the stats.


Incorrect.


Q u o t e:
Why not simply allow you to select between the 5 operational modes on each skill in the skill tree? If the only effect of more rare runes is a slight increase in damage or effect, this is not a very exciting change.


The changes they offer approach significant change in the operative use of a skill. It also plays into an item game, they drop like weapons or armor, and together with everything help to create a random drop pool and through long-term play (and trading) you can work towards a specific character build. Just making them a switch would remove the item game portion of gaining runes, and that's a part of the game we like playing up.


Q u o t e:
If the only advantage to a super rare rune in D3 is that it has +5 instead of +4, that's pretty lame...and as a "casual powergamer" I don't really care about a small difference of +1. This is going to make seeking out these rare runes a lot less fun because there is so little benefit to getting the ultimate rune...much less exciting than seeking out the runes and completing a runeword like HOTO or something, a ritual that made me FEEL like I was making real magic happen.


It sounds like you really liked the crafting component of runewords, and don't necessarily dislike the skill rune system. They're obviously very different systems and serve different purposes. As far as being excited about a +5 over a +4 stat, yeah that's end game min-max kind of stuff, but the skill runes themselves will have plenty of excitement when you get one to drop. It's just for different reasons. Maybe you're a level 10 Wizard, you've been using magic missile as your main attack for a long time now and it works fine, sure, but... what's that! a rune drops and it turns them into heat-seeking magic missiles, or some similar effect. That's a pretty dramatic change, and an exciting thing to look forward to in my opinion.


Q u o t e:
Basically, in making this post I hope someone realizes just what an awesome thing runewords in D2 were and brings them back...possibly replacing D3 runes, which don't really have any useful reason for being an item at all, and could just as easily be made as a selectable mode for each skill.


Runewords were a pretty cool system at their base, and yeah maybe they ended up causing some problems, but they were an interesting way to change items. But an item augmentation system really has no bearing on skill augmentations, except that they are both using the word rune. But using a word for two different systems doesn't invalidate them.

by Bashiok | 09/12/2009 23:32:26

Bashiok


Q u o t e:
Now this seems to contradict what Jay Wilson said


You're right, it does. But a contradiction only really exists if the statements aren't made four months apart on a constantly evolving project.


Q u o t e:
I'm basing it on the fact that it doesn't make sense to pay a bunch of artists to produce 5 varieties of each skill, with new animations, if only 1 out of 100,000 players ever gets to see that animation. We know that there are different rune types and different rune qualities, so it only makes sense that finding the lowest quality rune is going to be fairly common, thereby allowing all players to experience the new gameplay mechanics, whereas only the high level runes are truly rare. If a level 10 character CAN find it, then it's already by definition a fairly common item.


It's a random drop loot system, you could theoretically play for years and never see a rune drop. Agreed, runes of lower level stats will be able to be found by characters of low levels. That doesn't then mean that they're dropping at a rate that makes them so common they're essentially worthless though. Or to say it another way, a way more pertinent to your point, there's no reason to deduce that they would drop so commonly as to not be an interesting and exciting way to customize your character.


Q u o t e:
I deduced this because, if there are only 5 types of "base" skill runes. For example, if you have "Striking Rune" then the only way to make a more rare version of it using the same basic effect is to increase the bonus attributes, aka "Target bleeds additional 3 damage over 4 seconds", becomes "does additional 8 damage over 6 seconds", on the "Ancient Striking Rune" or something like that.

Did you think I was meaning character attribute points by your response?


No, I did not think that.


Q u o t e:
Sure, at level 10...but it doesn't seem like your example extends to bring pleasure into the late-game experience. At level 10, on your first run through, you're constantly being excited by new things...new areas, new monsters, new quests, new game mechanics.

By level 80, I'm sure you've had no trouble finding at least a low-level rune of each of the basic types, enough to augment all the skills that you wanted to augment. Clearly you want to get the highest version possible on each skill...but the excitement about going from +4 to +5 on your Striking Rune is very minimal.


It's a great thing that the entirety of character customization doesn't rest solely on the skill rune system then.

There are runes that simply increase damage, decrease costs, etc. and those may not be the most exciting upgrades you could ever imagine but they do have their place. To use them as the entire basis for judging the rune system is disingenuous. What if the difference between two levels of runes was +50 to +150? Does that make it better? I can make up numbers too.

All that aside, you only know what we've told you. It's an odd tone to take, one of tearing down, on things of which only tiny in-progress glimpses have been given.

[ Post edited by Bashiok ]

by Bashiok | 09/12/2009 23:46:37

Bashiok

Blathering blatherskite!

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